Curse

JR · Dec 05, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

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Originally Posted by Hella Good

The recent changes were necessary. The amount of armor buffs and nrg pumping a Paragon could give the team was too substantial.

Quoted for absolute truth.

People simply do not understand the role and effect of a Paragon, because it's still relatively new and largely operates in a way not seen in any other class. On a similar note the people who are new to playing the Paragon are probably still not sure of exactly how to use it, or what skills are optimal.

They were nuts before, they still work now.

Mr_Cynical · Dec 05, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

My real complaint is that all the exploit-based Paragon builds resulted in a very good Warrior skill being nerfed.

Riotgear · Dec 05, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

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Originally Posted by jesh

Frenzy. A lot of elementalists use Ether Prodigy, me included.

Running Frenzy in PvE is generally a bad idea.

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But at the same time it totally shuts down paragon in things like pve and ra.

RA, pack Stunning Strike and rip the necro a new one instead. K?

In PvE, you think I like it when my war gets swamped by Iboga who keep soothing images on me permanently? If you know you're going to be encountering annoying hexes, you bring some hex removal to get rid of them. Either get your monks to do it, or do it yourself. Hell, since paragon elites apparently suck, you can use this:

oinkers · Dec 05, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

That's it! You didn't say anything else about what you were using it on, and "return" implied you were using it on yourself. You do not make such a statement have merit by changing the context later.

I was using return in the context of energy cost vs gain. You took it to literally mean on myself, I didn't specify which party would gain as I was hoping you'd be competent enough to at least read the skill description. Apparently not.

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Go make a build that rapes the place that includes a paragon, and everyone will be copying it.

I was asking for this 2 pages ago, still haven't seen a decent build I can run. At least with the other core classes, each class has two or more well known builds that are effective in PvE, not merely indifferent.

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No, they don't bring hex removal just to "support a para", you bring it because hexes in general are a pain in the ass.

See earlier quote about necro mobs - when hexes hit partywide, monks will revert to heal pumping instead of hunting and removing every last hex on a party member. If you want to sit out a total shutdown when that happens, be my guest. Don't contradict me when I say it's not fun playing a Paragon then.

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Who said this where, what? Of course nerfing a virtually unlimited supply of energy had an effect, no one said it didn't. The only thing I'm doing is refuting several of your more-ridiculous statements and attempting to deflate your ego.

Oh, shut up you annoying tiddler. If anyone has an ego, it's you. You have not countered any of my many arguments and instead focused on the word "returned" like some rabid donkey. I dare you to come up with a paragon build that is on par with other PvE builds. Until then, just shut up. Paragons are secondary support only and will eventually dissappear like Rits.

Go to DoA. See how many groups use a Para. See how Incoming makes such a little difference in dmg reduction there - it basically proves how useless a skill it is in PvE. If you can't use Incoming to keep your party alive in DoA, there are NO other PvE situations where dmg spikes will apply. All the other Paragon elites are similarly sucky. Cruel Spear wtf?

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Originally Posted by Hella Good

The recent changes were necessary. The amount of armor buffs and nrg pumping a Paragon could give the team was too substantial. Remains to be seen if the nerfs were a bit too harsh. ANet do tend to overnerf things.

I agree. However a refinement is in order - the recent changes were necessary in _PvP_. Pity it destroyed any remaining satisfaction of playing Paragons in PvE. As it stands, Paragons have a support role (this is debatable, see rest of thread, but I'm willing to accept it) in PvP, but are merely indifferent in PvE. In PvE, you could swap out a Para for any other class and I doubt anyone would notice a difference.

B Ephekt · Dec 05, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

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Originally Posted by Spura

Ok then show me a good non-elite DPS attack. Bow, sword, hammer, axe are full of them.

Spear of Lightning, which I’ve only mentioned maybe 5 times so far, for one.

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Why would it be broken? First I fail to see how damage at range is an advantage when the spears are way too easily dodged. Many times I had monk strafe all my spears and only stop to rof team which not only made my damage = 0 but also made me gain no adrenaline. Of course then I started attacking other team members, but the point is with spears so easily dodged, you have the same problems as melee with kiting(that is droping dps to 0), except I've had spears dodged by a crippled target.

If you switch targets you should be constantly hitting things. As a warrior you wouldn't be following a kiting target very far, and you wouldn't continue to hit a protted target, so maybe you could apply the same logic to a Paragon?

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You have preconception that ranged needs to deal less damage(and SF elementalists are ranged and they deal as much damage as warriors so that proves you wrong there), because of the rangers. Well the rangers have a way to make arrows not miss and they pack a lot of conditions and interrupt, paragon doesn't.

Eles also have significantly less armor, so your point is moot and out of context. Having paragon be a DPS power house would be broken because of their high armor level; there has to be some downside to being able to sit back and deal large amounts of damage.

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In observer mode there's a paragon in about every 15th build.

I'm speaking from actual experience in GvG and tombs, not from simply watching obs mode. The majority of teams in the sub 100 range do bring paragons.

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and still adren spike is what kills not pressure.

This alone proves you have no idea about the current GvG meta. Pressure is huge right now, people only adren spike when they're not killing with pressure or need to take down a key target (runner, monk etc).

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Orb is better spike than that spear of lightning at 9 spear mastery.

I agree, but I also never suggested spiking with Spear of Lightning at 9 spear. One of these 3s activation time skills we spoke of earlier would be far better. Mighty Throw, for example, is only 2 adrenaline and does +28 at 9 spear. You could also use Wearying Spear and have a monk remove the weakness.

Now, I know neither of these skills comes close a 100 damage orb, (either would generally do ~50 damage to a 60 armor target) but it’s enough to aid in a spike if you have a paragon in the build already.

The thing that you’re ignoring is that there are reasons to take paragons in high level pvp. I understand that you may be unable able to see them, but that’s beside the point.

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The thing is that anyone who would care about your build(i.e. if it became popular) could have easily countered with shields up.

Again, how is this a valid point? How many teams bring enough copies of that skill, or at least 1 specced highly enough, to effectively counter the build? None. It was a build created to take advantage of the meta. I only brought it up to prove a point – paragons are not bad at doing damage, most people are just caught up on the whole “omg I can’t make pvp ridiculously easy for my team and frustrating for everyone else” aspect of the “nerf.”

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You laughed because you don't know crap. Hex is a drawback? So is Pacifism for instance. So why isn't pacifism a hex with duration=rechrage, ward aoe, no drawbacks? Because you can't have that on total shutdown.

Being a hex is a drawback because in organized pvp any team with some common sense will bring a counter to it. You'd have to be a complete idiot to bring a defensive paragon and forget hex removal, so your point is irrelevant.

Also, Pacifism is complete garbage, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing up a skill that absolutely no one uses in high level pvp.

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You don't even make the effort to think.

This makes the following quotes even funnier.

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Currently there is no way to make Vocal Minority stick on paragon in gvg. So it is useless in gvg. But at the same time it totally shuts down paragon in things like pve and ra.

So basically it's a useless skill anywhere that it would actually matter, right? Glad we agree. Furthermore, Guild Wars isn't balanced around 4v4, much less random 4v4, so fish for points more please.

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Stop talking crap like my fault cos pug monk or hero doesn't have hex removal. First of all necromancer mobs always have at least 3 hexes also monks don't prioritize removal, this hex hits whole party. And when you are in situation with 2 necro mobs it is impossible to shake the hex.

Actually, it is your fault if you choose to play a paragon, know you may face mobs with Vocal and still choose to neglect hex removal on your heros. And you can micromanage your heros, so perhaps it's you who aren't thinking here.

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So what good is current Vocal minorty? Does nothing in HA, GvG but overpowered in Ra and pve. Why do you support this?

Funny that I played through the entirety of the pve game as a paragon and never once had an issue with Vocal. Maybe because it's not a problem? Also, claiming things are "overpowered" because they work well in RA is just stupid.

In pve if you play a paragon make sure a monk (hero or not) has a way to remove Vocal and a few covers if necessary. Problem solved. In RA try to grasp the concept that it's a random arena, and cope with the fact that you will sometimes lose matches for stupid reasons.

oinkers · Dec 05, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Spear of Lightning, which I’ve only mentioned maybe 5 times so far, for one.

OMG double post you've heard of the Edit button right? *slap* By the way, Spear of Lightning is so weak I haven't bothered equipping it since I got it.

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Funny that I played through the entirety of the pve game as a paragon and never once had an issue with Vocal. Maybe because it's not a problem?

Maybe it's because you haven't been near those mesmer Ibogas near Modti? Or have you even tried DoA? Vocal Minority in ALL 4 AREAS in the 1st patrol you meet. I repeat: try asking a monk to waste a skill slot on hex removers - you'll get booted out pronto and a MoF ranger replaces you instead.

I really do believe you're not a PvE player at all. Neither is Riotgear it seems. Which is not necessarily a problem, unless your attitude is such that whatever is fine for PvP must surely also be for PvE, or that you don't give a damn. I'm not sure which of the two I find more off putting.

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If you switch targets you should be constantly hitting things.

Eeeek stay far, far, far away from my groups! You ought to know full well round robin-ing between targets achieves little as they regen quickly when you're not hitting them. Switching targets using sucky spear damage because you're being evaded too much? A stupid response to a situation that should never have arose.

You're making all the exceptions for PvP groups e.g. saying they'd be crazy not to being hex removers if a Paragon is coming along. You're quite happy ascribing to them best-case behaviour. Do you seriously expect this to be the case everywhere? In particular, do you seriously think this is the way PvE teams pan out? Like they're made up by the same people who form the top 100 PvP groups you like to base all your arguments on? I find your arguments not using comparables, and therefore disingenuous.

SparhawkJC · Dec 05, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

less character attacks and more focus on the game, to be honest.

oinkers · Dec 06, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

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Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

less character attacks and more focus on the game, to be honest.

I'd go with that. Only reason why I registered on this forum was to post on this thread about my dissatisfaction with Paragons, having lurked for a better part of a year on this site. All I get is PvP'ers saying that it was a balanced changed and leaving PvEr's to suffer.

It's saying something important that there are very few new builds being proposed and discussed on Paragons, and more arguing about their viability. It's not a healthy state of affairs. I remember the time around the NF preview when people were genuinely excited about Paragons being excellent all-rounders with WY/GFTE and spamming chants/shouts being synergistic with W secondaries. Where's that now? What viable builds has that made that hasn't been nerfed? None.

The only new build posted today (see other thread) again makes the cardinal mistake (which we've all felt tempted too) of putting 9 in spear just to get some damage out of it, and crippling command as a result.

Meh. ANet fanboys can say all they like about how Paragons are still somehow being used in PvP. We know it's niche. We know they won't last in the game beyond this chapter.

RandomEngy · Dec 06, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

It seems most of your beef is with finding groups in DoA, and that the area has an uncharacteristically high amount of anti-paragon skills. Counters to one specific class are always going to be stronger than general counters. That Paragons don't do well in an area with abundant paragon shutdown says absolutely nothing. Rather than complain at the class, it seems to me like you should take up your beef with whoever designed your area or the monks who refuse to remove VM.

Want an effective PvE paragon build? Here. Of course simultaneously setting lots of things on fire, reducing damage to your team, augmenting your team's damage and doing decent damage yourself sounds horrible.

Paragons do less damage than a warrior. And less healing/protection than a monk. But they do them both at the same time, which is what makes them an effective class. If you want them to simultaneously do the same damage as a warrior while provide more protection than a monk, you've got pretty unrealistic expectations of the class.

Khaunshar · Dec 06, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Actually, warrior damage is pretty much a myth against mobs lvl 22+.

I am not even sure where it comes from, but since the new AI has you running around a lot chasing the right target, or abandon it and whack the lvl 28 Blade of Corruption, warrior damage is pretty much nonexistant except for the occasional adrenaline-fueled spike.

Even in GvG, the netto damage a paragon does due to his range is pretty much the same as a warrior. People just play too much theorycraft.... yes, on paper a warrior outdamages a paragon, but figure in lag, running away, warping back at tight corners etc., warriors dont have much melee time.

For pressure, a paragons spear autoattack beats a warriors autoattack any time.

EDIT: Actually a friend told me where that warrior DPS myth stems from in his opinion: Mobs didnt use all that many defensive skills until Nightfall, meaning little issues with block, dodge, or "Watch Yourself" with tactics like 20

B Ephekt · Dec 06, 2006, 03:09 AM // 03:09

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Maybe it's because you haven't been near those mesmer Ibogas near Modti? Or have you even tried DoA? Vocal Minority in ALL 4 AREAS in the 1st patrol you meet. I repeat: try asking a monk to waste a skill slot on hex removers - you'll get booted out pronto and a MoF ranger replaces you instead.

I really do believe you're not a PvE player at all. Neither is Riotgear it seems. Which is not necessarily a problem, unless your attitude is such that whatever is fine for PvP must surely also be for PvE, or that you don't give a damn. I'm not sure which of the two I find more off putting.

My point, which you seemed to either take out of context or completely miss, is that when you run a class with a clear counter (vocal for paragons, blind for physical damage classes), you'd be an idiot to neglect an anti to that counter. Crying about Vocal being "overpowered" because you don't feel like bringing hex removal is just stupid.

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Eeeek stay far, far, far away from my groups! You ought to know full well round robin-ing between targets achieves little as they regen quickly when you're not hitting them. Switching targets using sucky spear damage because you're being evaded too much? A stupid response to a situation that should never have arose.

Had you actually bothered to read the comment you were replying to, you'd have realized it was in the context of pvp. Switching targets is what physical damge classes do when targets kite or get protted; it's called pressure. Of course this doesn't translate to pvp, but then again it was never meant to. Reading comprehension please.

The rest of your reply is just garbage. If you're going into an area where migraine, dazed, backfire, vocal (to name a few examples) or other harmful conditions or hexes are present you would be stupid to neglect counters. This is simply common sense stuff; it has nothing to do with pve vs. pvp, stop trying to throw that bullshit around like it's an actual point.

oinkers · Dec 06, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

My point, which you seemed to either take out of context or completely miss, is that when you run a class with a clear counter

You never seem to read my posts. Paragons dont have good spammable native hex removal skills - it was something i mentioned originally. There is no clear counter to this - even if you run P/Me, the moment you remove it, the same hex gets slapped on you again in seconds.

Don't bother replying to my posts. It's clear your a PvPer who has no experience of the standard kind of mobs you find in PvE.

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The rest of your reply is just garbage.

All your replies from the very beginning are worse than garbage, considering you never address the issues I raise.

What about a decent build? (3rd time asking).

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Originally Posted by RandomEngy

It seems most of your beef is with finding groups in DoA, and that the area has an uncharacteristically high amount of anti-paragon skills.

NO.

I use DoA to highlight one area where Paragons supposed damage reduction/party buffing would be crucial - as opposed to spot healing monks excel at. All the other missions in NF are too easy - you can muddle through with a lousy build all the time.

Guess what, DoA teams rarely include paragons.

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Want an effective PvE paragon build? Here. Of course simultaneously setting lots of things on fire, reducing damage to your team, augmenting your team's damage and doing decent damage yourself sounds horrible.

It does all those things you mentioned, just not very well.

The net effect is a horrible mishmash of skills that teams could easily do without as with. It's an indifferent build, not a good one. It's also very close to the builds that I choose to run these days (post nerf), which is a GFTE spammer fueled by Focused Anger. Sadly, the chaining with They're on Fire/Burning Finale/Anthem of Flame just isn't very good. There's no other decent skill chaining that Paras have.

And also, where is your hex removal? Half the mobs in PvE use adrenaline blockers or vocal minority. If you expect a monk to bring it, you're mad. You can equip a hero monk with hex removals, but it gets slapped back on you so fast you'd be draining monks energy like mad expelling hexes constantly.

Paragons like yours have counters yes. What matters is that the counters are disproportionaly powerful.

I really do wish people would read my posts carefully instead of taking it out of context and saying how it isn't true (only for me to point out they're talking about things in the context of PvP and how even there it's debatable).

And,

I didn't say Warriors attacks were better, I was comparing against:

1. Rangers with Barrage - wouldn't be nice if Paragons had "and hits 6 other nearby targets" type AoE skills on spears

2. Lame wanding Fire eles outta energy - Conjure Flame is what they use when they can't nuke due to being low on energy, it raises their wand damage. And it's better than spear at 9.

3. E/Mo HP bunnies - they heal unconditionally like mad on a large energy pool, better then all the *** of Restoration skills you can slap on a motivation Paragon which are limited by next attack skill, next time member uses shout etc etc.

Think about these points. See how inferior a highly speccd paragon is to most of the other core classes. You're not achieving much for a lot of effort - ANet has made yet another Rit with a niche PvP role.

B Ephekt · Dec 06, 2006, 08:06 AM // 08:06

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Originally Posted by oinkers

You never seem to read my posts. Paragons dont have good spammable native hex removal skills - it was something i mentioned originally. There is no clear counter to this - even if you run P/Me, the moment you remove it, the same hex gets slapped on you again in seconds.

Do you often find yourself playing with no monks? Then your "point" (which seems more like sidesteeping the obvious, honestly) is pretty silly.

Is it too far fetched to expect monks to be able to remove hexes and conditons? Granted, I know there is only so much you can expect form a pve pug monk, but hex removal isn't really an abstract thing. Especially when you consider the ability to choose your own hero monk skillbars.

Look, when I played through Nightfall on my paragon, I set both of my hero monks as standard mo/me Blessed Light monks, and never had a single problem with hexes. Is it really that hard to put a little though into something, instead of crying that paragons can't reomve hexes as well as a mesmer or monk?

As for your "point," paragons don't need "spammable native hex removal skills" when you consider than every single pve party will have 2 monks in it.

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Don't bother replying to my posts. [...] What about a decent build? (3rd time asking).

Don't be so indecisive!

Riotgear · Dec 06, 2006, 10:51 AM // 10:51

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Originally Posted by oinkers

I was hoping you'd be competent enough to at least read the skill description. Apparently not.

I know what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing skill does. I was assuming you were attempting to use it as an e-management skill based on your wording. K?

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when hexes hit partywide, monks will revert to heal pumping instead of hunting and removing every last hex on a party member.

Then control-click the hex icon until they do something about it. Yeesh. Or solve the problem yourself, as I suggested. God forbid you have to modify your skill bar to adjust to an area's specific challenges. Or better yet, you can get your tank to grow a brain and charge in first, since they'll target VM on you whether you can shout/chant or not.

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Oh, shut up you annoying tiddler.

Sorry, did I strike a nerve?

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You have not countered any of my many arguments and instead focused on the word "returned" like some rabid donkey.

I haven't what? Read them again please. The "returned" argument started because I made an assumption, and just because it didn't turn out to be correct doesn't mean it wasn't valid.

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Go to DoA. See how many groups use a Para. See how Incoming makes such a little difference in dmg reduction there - it basically proves how useless a skill it is in PvE.

Yes, it is useless in PvE. Who cares. Final Thrust is useless in PvE too, should I be crying for a buff to it? Use Song of Restoration or something instead.

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OMG double post you've heard of the Edit button right? *slap*

He's got a ways to go before he matches a 6-post streak followed immediately by a triple-post. Try again.

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Maybe it's because you haven't been near those mesmer Ibogas near Modti?

Actually I have, my warrior had tons of fun with those. Funny how you're complaining about VM when soothing on a warrior is really just as bad. The solution was basically the same though: Make a b-light with inspired hex, give myself expel hexes. Steamrolled. Yes, it would get re-applied. And it gets removed just as easily.

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I really do believe you're not a PvE player at all. Neither is Riotgear it seems.

Either that or neither of us have been running into those problems. Like kiting spears, just pick a spell caster, which will stand nice and still while you plug them.

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If you expect a monk to bring it, you're mad. You can equip a hero monk with hex removals, but it gets slapped back on you so fast you'd be draining monks energy like mad expelling hexes constantly.

If you're in an area with that many hexes, have them pack Divert! You're not the only one that gets pissed off by hex stacks that prevent you from doing anything. Or in the case of VM, have someone go in first. It's a 20 second recharge, and they'll target it on ANYONE, even if they don't have any chants/shouts.

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2. Lame wanding Fire eles outta energy - Conjure Flame is what they use when they can't nuke due to being low on energy, it raises their wand damage. And it's better than spear at 9.

Where the hell are you getting your eles from? The only excuse for being low on energy are the attunements getting stripped, in which case conjure isn't gonna last long either. The other thing that's being neglected is that your damage output is done largely through your teammates. Extra adrenaline, extra energy, free criticals, etc.

It all adds up, but it's subtle.

LightningHell · Dec 06, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

He's got a ways to go before he matches a 6-post streak followed immediately by a triple-post. Try again.

And then two MORE doubleposts. Geez, I'm having a very nice day today.

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Originally Posted by oinker

1. Rangers with Barrage - wouldn't be nice if Paragons had "and hits 6 other nearby targets" type AoE skills on spears

2. Lame wanding Fire eles outta energy - Conjure Flame is what they use when they can't nuke due to being low on energy, it raises their wand damage. And it's better than spear at 9.

3. E/Mo HP bunnies - they heal unconditionally like mad on a large energy pool, better then all the *** of Restoration skills you can slap on a motivation Paragon which are limited by next attack skill, next time member uses shout etc etc.

...

IMO the only reason to use your spear to attack is to get adrenaline for GtfE and other miscellaneous shouts. That's just me, I don't try to be a level 28 mob with a decent skillbar.

Your Fire ele example is just...wow...

Spura · Dec 06, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Way to behave like a jackass B Ephekt.

I suggest a change that would make a skill useful in all game modes and you are being an asshole about it. I bring up pacifism because it is like Vocal Minority a complete shutdown of an aspect of a character. As you can see, all other "you can;t do X" skills are way weaker and usually their recharge is bigger than their duration. I suggest Vocal Minority is made into something that doesn't totally shutdown shouts, just hinder them like by increasing recharge by 5 sec, but with increased spamability. Which would be great for gvg (which I know is main point for balancing anything), as it is currently useless in gvg, but at the same time it would be balanced in other game modes. Because if you just decrease recharge it starts to be a large problem in other game mode which, while usually not being included when balancing, shouldn't be broken when there is a better solution for everyone at hand.

Also your guild is something like rank 800+, so keep your snide comments how I don't know crap about gvg meta to yourself kthx.

JR · Dec 06, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Flame less.